Thursday, August 5, 2010

Official formula changed to 2X concentrate

I've changed the official formula to a 2X concentrate of the original formula. Posts dated before today all refer to the original formula, regarding dilutions. All posts from today forward will reference the new 2X concentrate. I think this is a good change!

30 comments:

Mcrl said...

Hello Jay,

Can you tell something about the change, if any, of the development times, especially for stand development?

All the best,
Marcel

jdef said...

Hi Marcel,

The only change is that the dilution should be doubled. If you were using a 1:10 dilution, you will get the same results with a 1:20 dilution of the new 2X concentrate, etc. Thanks for your comment, and good luck!

ScottPage said...

Being completely new to all this, I want to ensure I understand the 1:20 dilution. Does that mean 1+20 or 1+19 to equal 20? I've heard it used both ways so it can be confusing.

ScottPage said...

Also, in buying chemicals there is both anhydrous and monohydrate in sodium carbonate. Which one to use?

jdef said...

Scott,

I use 1:20 to mean one part in 20 parts, total, or 1+19.
The monohydrate form of sodium carbonate is fine. The pH of the concentrate should be about 11.

Scott said...

Hello Jay,

I made the GSD-10 developer and processed my first 120 rolls of Acros 100. I used 1500 ml of working developer for 3 rolls. I had some problems with streaking in both directions on the negatives visible in sky type areas. I'm wondering if I should try 10 seconds agitation at 8 min and 16 min with the total at 24 min?

Also, the Acros were rolls I shoot before trying this developer and were metered at EI 80. Even with the greater than EI 200 exposure, the negatives seemed too thin and flat (more like N-1 with EI 50). I used room temperature distilled when making the developer, but had to heat it after adding the glycin to get it to clear. Should I have used hot water to begin with? Any help would be appreciated.

jdef said...

Hi Scott,

Thanks for sharing your experiences here.

If you see uneven development, increasing agitation is a good practice.

I recommend doing your own testing to find development times that give you results you like. There are so many potential variables that affect development, it's almost impossible to determine why one photographer's results don't match another's. Can you tell me what dilution, temperature and agitation you used? In the meantime, if your negatives appear to be underdeveloped, increase development. I hope you're not developing important images without first establishing your personal development times. I tested Acros in 35mm, but I'm not sure that makes a difference.

Glycin will dissolve faster in warmer water. You can heat your water to 125F to ease mixing.

Please let me know if your problems persist, and I'll try to help you trace the source of the problem.

Be well,

Jay

kyle said...

I normally prewash for five minutes and use demi water when mixing the developer stock and working solutions. I been streak free so far without the need to agitate every few minutes. help that helps

denis said...

Hi Jay, just mixed a fresh batch of GSD-10 using the new formula, what would be a good starting point for semi stand development with TMY2 in 35mm 120mm and 4X5 time/temp/dilution/agitation? and have you any idea of rotary times, although I understand that it may be less effective if its used with constant agitation. I would also like to thank you again for your wonderful contribution to the photographic arts, in this I am sure I am not alone! Denis

jdef said...

Hi Denis!

The 2X concentrate is identical to the original version, except that it's 2X more concentrated, so all you need to adjust is your dilution. If you were using 1:5 for rotary processing with the original formula, use 1:10 with the new one, and your results should be identical. All the old information stands; just double the dilution. I'm pretty sure you've used more GSD-10 than I have in the last few months. I should be asking you for advice!

denis said...

Hi Jay, I have been using the fabulous 510 pyro for the last eight months and really happy with it for graded papers giving fine edge detail which is impressive on 8x10 contact prints. I just mixed a batch of GSD-10 (5litres) to use with smaller format to print on VC paper. I have not yet used GSD-10 for semi-stand development (except the brush method on that Kodak 60's safety-film 8X10) so wanted a benchmark to begin testing. Would dilution of 1:20 @ 21c for 25mins for TMY2 35mm sound about right? Agitate 1 minute and then 10 secs halftime? The times in the blog posts are a little confusing as I am not sure if they relate to old formula or new. So thought I would ask!

jdef said...

Hi Denis,

Your estimate is a good one. The key to posted times is the date of the post. Anything posted before the change to 2X concentrate refers to the original concentration, and anything posted after, refers to the 2X concentration.

You mixed 5 liters of GSD-10? Wow! That will make 50-100 liters of working solution. Are you preparing for a period of high production? I hope you are. I'd love to see more of your portrait work. What's the smaller format you'll be using?

denis said...

Thank you Jay, what was the date of the change over? I have been using 35mm old nikon f3 with 50mm f1.2 and some 6x7 with the Mamiya rz pro aka "the brick"! My printing needs a lot of work so its economical to use smaller format. The French have a saying in order to become a blacksmith you need to work hot metal hence the five litre mix! I ran some TMY through the Jobo starting time: 6mins @21c adjusted to down 5mins as the processor was running at 22+c just about to VC print the results but the negs look good but will see on printing. I am using a cheap proofing paper but it seems to do the trick. Will take digital photo of the prints as scanner is on the blink. Can I post images on the blog do I send them to you?

jdef said...

Hi Denis,

The official change was made 9/5/10, when this thread was posted. In my experience, the negs that print best look a little thin. Dense negs can get grainy. You certainly have some nice equipment. When you're ready to post some images, just email them to me, along with whatever you want to write up with them, and I'll post them for you. Looking forward to it!

denis said...

Hi Jay, I used semi stand development 25mins@21c dilution 1:20 agitate 1 min at the beginning and then 10 secs halfway for TMY2 120 (images made with the Mamiya) The negs were overdeveloped but still easily printable but a little too contrasty for my taste. For normal development 20-21mins would do the trick. So I also developed Delta 100 in medium format 21 mins@21c with same agitaion and the negs were spot on. Looking at the negs I had forgotten what a fantastic developer GDS-10 really is, thanks again Jay! I put the two of the prints on Flickr (link is below) but will mail a few more images when I have print them. My scanner is kaput so will have to use a digital camera!

http://www.flickr.com/photos/57denis/5679814835/in/photostream/

jdef said...

Hi Denis,

Delta 100 is an excellent choice for pairing with GSD-10. Thanks for the link. Your TMY negs might have been a little overexposed, too (just guessing). I get best results with minimum exposure and development. My favorite negs look to be on the thin side, but scan and print beautifully.You have a lot of developer to go through, and I'm sure you'll have it nailed long before you get through your batch. Good luck, and thanks so much for sharing your results.

denis said...

Hi Jay, you are correct the negs are overdeveloped but with a little tweaking they will be fine. I printed the TMY neg on Proofing paper which is also a little soot and chalk. I think I will give Adox FB graded a shot later this week just to compare. I like the look of Delta so will buy some stock, I intend to give Fpan 50 and FP4 (medium format) a spin later this week will post results. Think I will use 20mins as a starting point with the Fpan and FP4

I was wondering how would GSD-10 stand (and semi) development compares with two bath compensating developers (Stoeckler etc)? I haven't used divided developers but understand they have a compensating effect. I enjoy 35mm street photography from time to time however, the light changes so frequently and the images have to be made snapshot, I am curious to see if there is anyway to increase the chances of even development over a diverse range? I have not yet developed any reels with a wide variety brightness ratio's using GSD-10 I suspect that it may do the trick.

jdef said...

Hi Denis,

All the films you mention are good ones, and work well with GSD-10. I suggest you bracket your exposures and keep notes to identify the best exposure. I'd try box speed, 1/2 stop over box speed, and a full stop over box speed (EI 100, 150, and 200 for Delta 100, etc.). I suspect all of the exposures will be printable, but printing qualities might vary significantly. You also might try a more dilute solution for longer development times. 1:50 should give you development times in the 45 min to 1 hour range, and provide maximum compensating effects.

I've done a lot of experimenting with 2-bath developers. There are essentially two types of 2-bath developers. Type A developers begin development in the first bath. Stoeckler's is the classic type A 2-bath developer. Type B developers don't develop at all in the first bath. Diafine is the classic type B 2-bath developer. Type A developers permit a far greater degree of control than type B developers do, but type B developers produce maximum compensating effects. I've experimented with all kinds of 2-bath developers, and have had good results from many, but for me, they are a special tool, and not a primary option.

You can easily make a glycin-based 2-bath developer using the same ingredients used in GSD-10.

G2B

A

Distilled water @ 40C 750ml

Sodium Sulfite 100g

Glycin 7g

Distilled water (cool) to 1 liter

B

Water 750ml

Sodium carbonate 200g

Water to 1 liter.

The A solution can be re-used many times, and topped up with fresh solution when the volume gets too low.

The B solution is a stock solution. Dilute 1:20 and use one-shot. You can re-use it once, but not more.

Develop 3-5 minutes in each bath.

Though similar in formulation to Stoeckler's (type A), G2B is more like Diafine (type B) in action, because glycin is far less active in a sulfite solution than metol is, so little, if any development takes place in the first bath.

Glycin is also more sensitive to low temperature than metol is, so keep development temps above 20C for best results.

You might find this developer useful for your 35mm street photography. Give it a try on some unimportant negs and let us know how it works for you.

denis said...

Jay That’s fabulous! Ideal that GB2 is the same type of developer...
Can't wait to mix some and give it a go. Hopefully I can get some 35mm done to test. I will share the results. Will give the extended developing time a go too. Many thanks for the info and formula!

denis said...

Hi Jay, I tried increased stand development method 1:50 @45 mins 21c and had good results with the 35mm. I also gave the delta 120 a test. I made some images of a Kodak enlarger exposure time wheel transparency over a white background. I metered the same value on each image of the wheel placing the dark (no 6 segment) on zone III. I made three images each a stop apart and stand developed them. Placing them in the enlarger I used RH designs Stopclock Meter to measure the densities. I soon realised that the readings were fluctuating quite a bit. I therefore averaged out the readings of each segment resulting in the following values for each neg: 0.23, 0.16, 0.9. I am assuming that my domestic power supply is causing the fluctuations. I am thinking that maybe an external voltage regulator may solve this problem. I was wondering would there be any merit in weakening the developer (maybe 1:60?) and increasing the 45mins to say 1 hour rather than reducing the time? Not sure what the pros and cons of lowering concentration or reducing the dev time. I must say though that the 35mm street shots turned out really well, even with large variance in SBR (rain and bright sunshine). Waiting for chemicals to arrive to test the G2B and will keep you posted!

jdef said...

Hi Denis,

The advantage to a more dilute solution with longer development time, compared to a shorter development time with a more concentrated solution is that a dilute solution will exhaust locally, creating the compensating and edge effects stand development is prized for. There is a point, however, beyond which a solution is too dilute to develop adequate density in the negative, so it's a bit of a balancing act. Your unintended experiment with a 1:100 solution taught us GSD-10 has a lot more capacity than I imagined, so I think you have quite a lot of leeway in diluting your developer. Be fearless! Easy to say when they're not my negatives, right? Good luck, and let us know how it works out for you. Let's see some of your 35mm stuff.

denisfraser at msn dot com said...

Hi Jay hope you are well. Wonder if you can help? My last batch of GSD-10 has turned a really dark tea/claret/red wine colour and seems to give contrasty results. Although I have filtered the mix twice there are still white particles forming at the bottom and in suspension. Have I not mixed enough? Is is possible the Glycin was old? Or has the developer oxidized? Lastly would it be possible to replace the distilled water in the formula with TEA? All the best, Denis

jdef said...

Hi Denis,

It seems your glycin has oxidized. You can't replace the water with TEA (glycin is not very soluble in TEA), but you can divide the stock solution. Keep the glycin and sulfite in one solution, and the carbonate in another, and mix them before use. This should extend the life of your stock solution. Good luck!

Marcel Schepers said...

Hello Jay, Hello Denis,

What is the expected lifetime of the G2B-A solution? Several weeks, a few months or two years?

jdef said...

Hi Marcel,

I'm not really sure what the shelf life is, because I always use mine up before it goes off. I think it's safe to say it's good for 6 months, and probably more. It might do even better if part of the sodium sulfite was replaced by sodium metabisulfite. Maybe something like 90g sodium sulfite and 10g sodium metabisulfite. And keeping air out of the container will help, too. I hope this helps!

Tim Henrion said...

Just tried to mix some of this up for the first time. The 2X formula was challenging to get all of the stuff to dissolve, even using a magnetic stirrer.

So I got a 1 liter batch mixed up and set it to sit. About a week later, I looked at the bottle only to find that a white flakey precipitate had formed in the solution. I couldn't get the precipitate to dissolve, even with heating the solution. Has anyone seen anything like this?

Denis said...

Hi Tim, I had the same issue. Not sure what causes it however I now use a kilner jar with a wide neck (bought from the UK in tescos for about 3quid)I sit it on my heater stirrer with a magnet permanently at he bottom and if there is any residue I let it stir until clear. It seems that after a few extra mixes it stabilises, well so far anyway. Cheers Denis.

Tim Henrion said...

Hi Denis,
Thanks for the info. I heated the solution to 80F-90F and let it sit on my non-heated magnetic stirrer for about 15 minutes and none of the precipitate dissolved. I think that next batch I try (I really like how GSD-10 in 10% Sulfite solution works with Delta 3200) will be the old 1X formula.

Denis said...

Hi Tim, I seem to recall Jay suggested that I put in a teaspoon/per litre of EDTA Clearing Agent which combined with the heating/stirring did the trick I also read in an old photochemistry book that Potassium Carbonate could be substituted(with some increase in amount) for Sodium Carb but I guess that may change the tonal characteristics you prefer. I am no chemist though! As you say, if you are happy with GSD-10 it is a compelling reason to carry on using it.

Kevin McGovern said...

Had similar problems getting the glycin ti dissolve, even at 125F. Finally diluted with 1L distilled water at get 2 liters of Original Formula working solution. No more dregs!